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Post by miscmisc on Jul 18, 2014 7:03:15 GMT 1
The timing of this is enormous gasoline for the conspiracy theorists everywhere, given what's going on in Israel. You'll hear and see lots of "global Jewry" conspiracy theories all over the internet for months to come.
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Post by Jofeljoh! on Jul 18, 2014 14:16:33 GMT 1
One of our co-workers was in that plane. Not a direct one (3500 people work here), but suddenly it comes awfully close. This whole day my (other) direct co-worker is busy with the communication of this loss (to other co-workers, parents from the daycare she worked, etcetera).
Also a few people I know online who either lost a friend, family members or co-worker. Even though we have 16 million people in the Netherlands, it's surprisingly small considering 189 (latest number) Dutch people died.
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Post by K1power on Jul 18, 2014 17:08:06 GMT 1
Ahw man, that's awful. Not that it isn't that bad when it doesn't involve 'close' ones, but you know what I mean.
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Post by miscmisc on Jul 18, 2014 17:39:09 GMT 1
Yeah, even if the thread that connects you and an incident like this is the thinnest and longest one, the realization that there is the thread changes your perspective, if only subtly.
I wonder if this would affect the Dutch position re: Ukraine/Russia, which is even more dovish than Germany's as the country, along with Italy, has always been rather friendly to Russia (Rutte would never support Polish neocon Sikorski for the EU foreign policy chief position), if it turns out that it was indeed the separatists that did it. Given the number of victims, the government won't be able to just shrug it off in the "Well, shit happens" way.
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Post by miscmisc on Jul 18, 2014 17:49:34 GMT 1
What's most sickening about Gaza-Israel is that Israel has been using Gaza effectively as a laboratory for their "experimental" weapons, so that they can sell them abroad with the actual data attached to it. There is plenty of evidence for that.
And it's not just weapons. The border-control techniques and racial profiling technologies that they have developed by actually using them against Palestinians have been selling like hotcakes, and the biggest buyer is of course the United States of America. They already use the made-in-Israel techniques at a number of airports and check points in the US, even employing Israelis as supervisors.
I wonder how many Americans are aware of that.
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Post by h on Jul 18, 2014 18:28:56 GMT 1
you make a good point about the plane even being allowed to fly around there. i do fault the airlines for that they should have known better in that situation to fly civilians around a war zone.
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Post by Jofeljoh! on Jul 18, 2014 19:25:39 GMT 1
Oh by the way I'm flying to Bangkok in 5 weeks, with...
... a transfer in Kiev.
(not worried though).
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Post by h on Jul 18, 2014 19:41:33 GMT 1
woohoo bangkok! watch out for the ladyboys. dont want no surprises.
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Post by K1power on Jul 18, 2014 21:34:37 GMT 1
Oh by the way I'm flying to Bangkok in 5 weeks, with... ... a transfer in Kiev. (not worried though). However, given the circumstances I can see why your first reaction wasn't to put it in the very specific cheers thread. lol |
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Post by Jofeljoh! on Jul 18, 2014 22:36:53 GMT 1
Hehe yeah. But I trust things will have calmed down a little bit, and the airline will take all necessary measures to make sure we come out alive  Also, this whole thing will cause (if not already) a political mess for Russia and the seperatists. Not likely that they will make the same mistake again, I reckon. |
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Post by h on Jul 18, 2014 23:18:11 GMT 1
Hehe yeah. But I trust things will have calmed down a little bit, and the airline will take all necessary measures to make sure we come out alive Also, this whole thing will cause (if not already) a political mess for Russia and the seperatists. Not likely that they will make the same mistake again, I reckon. pretty much right on all points. |
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Post by miscmisc on Jul 19, 2014 15:28:13 GMT 1
In actuality, passenger planes fly over conflict zones all the time, particularly in Africa and Asia. They don't care much. As far as the pilots are concerned, it's just some apes fighting with clubs underneath their beautiful airplanes flying majestically above the clouds.
I suppose they carried the same mentality over to Ukraine. Ukraine may be a relatively poor country, but you should never forget that it's ex-USSR, and Russia is involved one way or another = plenty of decent lethal weapons available even if they don't really pay much for them. They do use the standard "club" weapons like RPG-7s too, every guerrilla fighter's best friend, the cheapest and finest weapon ever invented along with AK-47 and Toyota pickup trucks, but needless to say, they certainly didn't use those to shoot down the Su-25 fighters. Only SAM's can do it.
Most commercial passenger planes have no capability to detect the lock-on signal. Unlike military pilots, the airline pilot has no idea what's about to hit him right until the moment of explosion.
Anyway, Kiev is indeed a sort of hub on your way from Europe to South Asia. But Eastern Ukraine is where all the fighting has taken place, and will take place. I would expect all the planes to take a detour to avoid the East from now on. It's not just the rebels that you should fear after all - the Ukrainian military shot down a Russian passenger plane only 10 or so years ago by mistake while doing a military drill. Can't trust any of them. You can't be too cautious
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Post by miscmisc on Jul 19, 2014 17:09:23 GMT 1
The shamelessness of the US mainstream media really has no bounds.
CNN's Israeli correspondent Diana Magnay was pulled from Israel, and has been re-assigned to Moscow. Why? Because after reporting from Sderot, she tweeted this:
"Israelis on hill above Sderot cheer as bombs land on #gaza; threaten to destroy our car if I say a word wrong. Scum."
She was harassed and threatened before and during a liveshot by the Israeli youths who were having a bloody good time partying over the scenes of Gazan civilians bombed into pieces. "Scum" is exactly the right word to describe those moral monsters, but the language was "inappropriate", according to the CNN. She had to apologize, and won't report from Israel anymore.
"Scum" is also exactly the word for the men in charge at that piece of shit "news channel".
Meanwhile, NBC pulled veteran corespondent Ayman Mohyeldin, who broke the story of the children on the beach killed by the Israeli military. He had played football with the kids only minutes before the senseless violence took their lives.
The reason that NBC gave for that? Why, of course, the all-purpose "safety concern". Never mind that another reporter, who doesn't speak Arabic or know the place at all unlike Ayman, and even an exec are headed for Gaza as we speak. Apparently they are so strong and invincible that they can laugh away the "safety concern", unlike Ayman, who speaks Arabic fluently and knows every street of Gaza.
I have to pose that question again: For how long do those bastards think that this can go on? People may be as gullible and stupid as they were decades ago, hundreds of years ago, but it has become so easy to be exposed to the "other" side of the story thanks to the internet. Any dumb ass can easily bump into these stories, and what do you think their knee-jerk conclusions would be?
"Jews control everything! Those powerful, evil Jews!"
I wonder if the apologist supporters are too stupid to think of that. Why do they keep justifying by themselves this kind of more dangerous conspiracy theory/antisemitism? I really don't know why.
Many of the reporters at NBC are furious at that decision made by the higher-ups, FYI.
Call me naive, but I honestly believe that we are slowly approaching a breaking point. They won't be able to get away with this blatant bias forever. According the polls, a little more than half of Americans still think that Israel's response has been appropriate, and only less than 20% think it has been inappropriate. These are certainly depressing numbers, yes. Impossible numbers in almost any other country, which goes to show the enormous influence that the US mainstream media had and still have over Americans in general. But you must remember that the "yea" camp now includes lots of Christian fundie bigots, some of the biggest Israel supporters today, who used to actually not care much about the Middle East. Their large presence does skew the numbers. And as hard to believe as it might be, the numbers used to be even more ridiculous in the past.
It's not just numbers anyway. The news anchors have to please their bosses, but I can detect some hints of their hidden discomfort toward the mainstream narrative from their wording. The same old business won't be exactly same old anymore, I believe.
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Post by miscmisc on Jul 19, 2014 18:18:03 GMT 1
Seriously, CNN really is the worst. That's not news, but it really is. Worse than FOX News, I'm telling you.
The final straw for me, at least when it comes to Israel, was their attempt to paint Israel's war against Hezbollah in South Lebanon several years ago as some kind of "success". A few problems, maybe, but no failure at all, no sir! Like, look at the number of the Hezbollah deaths! Israel only lost remarkably fewer of their men!
I'm not aware of a single Israeli who would call it anything but a disaster. A huge political mess/storm immediately followed the conclusion of that disastrous campaign after all. CNN hardly followed up on that, so the average American (or international, for that matter) viewer wouldn't know. They report hardly anything about Israel during the "normal" times. Even the series of huge, huge mass protests that took place there a few years ago didn't make it on the news. And that's precisely what creates the space for that kind of absolutely ridiculous, blatant lies. They deliberately keep the viewers ignorant of the country so that they can get away with all kinds of bullshit that they spew when something dramatic like this happens.
They are not only apologists for Israel's conduct, but also actively engage in creating and maintaining the myth of the Israeli invincibility.
Like I said, war is not about the number of casualties. A lot more Hezbollah fighters were killed than Israelis, but Israel failed to achieve a single one of their goals. They had to flee South Lebanon with the tail between the legs, losing far more tanks and soldiers than they had expected - WITHOUT ACHIEVING A SINGLE POLITICAL GOAL.
What that war proved is that the IDF was overrated. They were cocky and ruthless when they were "fighting" the poor defenseless Palestinians, but as soon as they had to face a more formidable foe, Hezbollah, they had to wimp out in the end. They turned out to be a paper tiger when it comes to REAL asymmetric warfare.
That defeat in South Lebanon makes me even more disgusted at Israel in fact. Who likes someone who's only tough and strong against the weaker? Shoots at children and hospitals with expensive weapons in their backyard, but comes home crying, "But, but, but, we killed more of them than they did us!" against a decent military force? Unlike decades ago, when they did have to fight for their lives against Egyptian/Syrian/Jordanian armies, they have become a military who simply can't take casualties. A bunch of wimps, at least by the Middle Eastern standards, but play tough against the defenseless, not giving a shit about their casualties.
They shall receive zero respect from me.
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Post by miscmisc on Jul 19, 2014 18:43:31 GMT 1
Dan Murphy said a spot-on re: Israel and its blind supporters' attitude:
I've long been interested in doing a piece on Israel's "in your face" PR; counterproductive as outreach, but red meat for the base.
That's absolutely true. They ignore the "outreach", at their own peril. This circle-jerk among the "base" won't lead to anything good for Israel in the end.
Who is not expecting another round of antisemitism in the future? Those idiots are actively inviting it by themselves. They think they are invincible because they've got the money and power, not realizing how fragile those things are in actuality, as history has proved time and time again.
The "leftist" Jewish Isrealis are going through terrible times right now, demonized, savaged online and even physically attacked in the streets. An Israeli footballer tweeted yesterday that all "leftists" should be sent to "gas chambers".
None of this will make it into the news program outside Israel, and they will be left fighting alone in the sea of war fever. They are Jews too, but the cheerleaders don't give a shit about them. Senseless, and tragic.
A CNN analyst has just said in the typical "in your face" way: "War isn't soccer. There's no need to play fair." Yes, red meat for the base, counterproductive as outreach. If you are sane, you juxtapose that comment with the images of the torn apart bodies of children, and wonder. And you remember that all of this shit happened only because a few loose cannons killed three teenagers.
And you realize, what bullshit all of this is.
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