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Post by samurai1 on Mar 3, 2018 23:57:52 GMT 1
no. The fight was close overall and competitive, but hesdy didn't even won a round. Round 2 was the closest, but hari still edged gerges out. Round 1 and 3 were clearly won by Hari. 30-27 for hari, at the absolute worst 29-28 or 30-28. Anyway, hari worked really hard for this, props for both fighters for keeping the pace. |
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Post by karaevfan on Mar 3, 2018 23:59:35 GMT 1
no. The fight was close overall and competitive, but hesdy didn't even won a round. Round 2 was the closest, but hari still edged gerges out. Round 1 and 3 were clearly won by Hari. 30-27 for hari, at the absolute worst 29-28 or 30-28. Anyway, hari work really hard for this, props for both fighters for keeping the pace. Fair. I thought he took R2, and didn't really remember R1 besides Badr getting low kicked once and stumbling so those two might have blended in my mind a bit. |
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Post by samurai1 on Mar 4, 2018 0:27:37 GMT 1
no. The fight was close overall and competitive, but hesdy didn't even won a round. Round 2 was the closest, but hari still edged gerges out. Round 1 and 3 were clearly won by Hari. 30-27 for hari, at the absolute worst 29-28 or 30-28. Anyway, hari work really hard for this, props for both fighters for keeping the pace. Fair. I thought he took R2, and didn't really remember R1 besides Badr getting low kicked once and stumbling so those two might have blended in my mind a bit. Round 2 is tricky to judge, gerges won very clearly the first minute... but he lost the last two minutes(or something like that), but despite losing the last two minutes of that round, he did better than badr in the first minute than badr did in the last two minutes.... so is hard to judge that round. I would say it was still 10-9 badr, but I could understand if you consider that 10-10 or 10-9 for gerges. In the first round Badr stumbled form a low kick because he was off balance after he threw a right straight punch to the body that put him in a bad position and gerges counter low kick him and caught badr off balance. . Actually I thought that gerges looked a bit bothered in round 3 when badr threw some low kicks at him. One thing that could also be said about this fight is that gerges is almost impossible to be kept at distance. Badr did that for the first two minutes or so with the jabs, footwork, and middle kicks, but in the last minute of the first round gerges managed to close the distance and make it a dog fight. |
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Post by K1power on Mar 4, 2018 4:48:31 GMT 1
It boggles my mind how someone can be so consistently negative and miserable about something that's supposed to be entertainment and an enjoyable pastime, but there you are yet again. Or rather, here you are yet again: to the defense in true fanboy fashion, triggered by even the faintest whisk of critique - no matter how justified it may be - on the brand you love to blindly defend. If you took the time to actually read my posts and not just single out lines that trigger you because 'OMG someone saying bad things about Glory!' you might have made the observation that to me kickboxing is much more than just 'entertainment' or an 'enjoyable pastime' as you put it. And that is precisely why I am holding it to a higher standard. Nothing should be free from criticism, especially the things you're passionate about. If we collectively turn a blind eye to things we feel are bad, nothing will ever improve. I critique, not from a pessimistic perspective, but from a sincere hope for improvement. And I get frustrated sometimes, sure, but in no way do I consider myself 'consistently negative and miserable'. Frankly, I find it surprising for anyone to come to that conclusion about me which, I guess, reiterates my point of you not actually having read any of my posts other than selectively singling out comments that triggered you. Overall, I actually had a pretty good time tonight, despite being bored out of my skull by some of the fights. I'm not too upset about it though, because to a certain degree it's what I expected. Sure, I am critical sometimes, but also give credit where credit's due: actually far more of the latter than the former, because believe it or not I'm actually a pretty positive guy who hates negativity and cynicism and likes liking things a lot more than disliking things. Not a fan of blindly liking stuff, though. Makes me happy to be me and not you since I'm enjoying myself and making money with the card on top of it. What does making some money betting have to do with anything, let alone the quality of the fights? It feels like a somewhat childish, misplaced jab in an already badly constructed 'argument'. |
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Post by JustBleedFan on Mar 4, 2018 22:00:13 GMT 1
K1power, I singled out your specific complaint about the Tomas Mozny vs Daniel Skvor bout being on the card because it makes no sense to me. I mean, given the fact that Glory has to put one bout to break up the semi-finals and finals of the tournament, what's exactly wrong with this one being it? Out of all the weight classes, aren't decent heavyweight kickboxers relatively few and far between worldwide? These two have pretty good records at 19-6-1 and 25-6-2 now. Glory can't just have only the same few guys on the roster including Rico, Badr, Hesdy, Jamal, Guto and Mladen fight each other over and over again and never give any other heavyweights a chance to show their skills. Are there a plethora of other available heavyweights that are free agents that are being ignored?
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Post by karaevfan on Mar 5, 2018 2:00:13 GMT 1
K1power, I singled out your specific complaint about the Tomas Mozny vs Daniel Skvor bout being on the card because it makes no sense to me. I mean, given the fact that Glory has to put one bout to break up the semi-finals and finals of the tournament, what's exactly wrong with this one being it? Out of all the weight classes, aren't decent heavyweight kickboxers relatively few and far between worldwide? These two have pretty good records at 19-6-1 and 25-6-2 now. Glory can't just have only the same few guys on the roster including Rico, Badr, Hesdy, Jamal, Guto and Mladen fight each other over and over again and never give any other heavyweights a chance to show their skills. Are there a plethora of other available heavyweights that are free agents that are being ignored? Lets all chill. We're all fans here. With that said, while I understand the constraints Jim Gunn raises, I've seen that fight by now and I lean with K-1 power on this. That card had no business being on the main card. Now you can argue that Glory needs to highlight heavyweights, and sure that's true, but they could have done that earlier in the card. Events aren't just a collection of fights a promotion needs to set up, scheduled whenever they can. If you want to sell your product, each event needs to have a theme and a natural buildup that gets the audience excited and ever more hyped for the final. The easiest thing to do is something like an 8 man one nighter of course, but you can still do it without something like that. For example the K-1 Yokohama card of 2009 is a close peer cause it also featured a 4 man tournament and a collection of superfights. Going into that event, the thing everyone was talking about was Overeem defeating Badr in the 2008 Dynamite event. The running contention was 'can K-1 defend its honor' and as an extension 'can the old guard of K-1 retain their relevance in a new era of fight sports'. It also needed to throw in a 4 man tournament to decide the new 100kg champ after Badr lost the title. Check out that fight order Prelims: Three opening fights featuring Japanese talent 4 man 100kg one night tournament SFs 1. Maeda Keijiro vs Melvin Manhoef 2. Gohkan Saki vs Tyrone Spong Super fights 3. Semmy Schilt vs Hesdy Gerges 4. Jerome le Banner vs Ewerton Teixeira 5. Glaube Feitosa vs Sawayashiki Junichi 6. Peter Aerts vs Errol Zimmerman 7. 4 man GP finals (Maeda Keijiro vs Gohkan Saki) 8. Remy Bonjaski vs Alistair Overeem Its operating under the same constraint (4 man tournament is gonna happen, it will be the effective penultimate fight but you need a separate co-headliner), but structured so that there's a natural progression a. The 4 man (who were the less notable fighters at the time, though all of them would be considered stars in this era) is kicked off at the start of the event. b. In between the SFs and the finals, we get a host of strong one fights all featuring an old guard fighter vs a new guard one. There is a consistent theme across all cards. People cheered on an upstart Hesdy pressed the fight against Semmy, got disappointed when JLB faded against the tide of Teixeira, then roared back as Feitosa and Aerts retained their ground vs Sawayashiki and Zimmerman. c. The effective coheader of the card in the posters, i.e. Aerts vs Zimmerman was an intriguing matchup due to both the calibur of the fighters involved and because of the natural story. Aerts, the most venerated fighter in the GP, had been overwhelmed by Badr in the 2008 GP whereas Zimmerman had come out of nowhere to become a star in the event. d. The tournament finals came in as the penultimate event. This had the operational effect of giving them time to rest and also the stage effect of giving the audience time to digest what happened in the earlier fights and getting them wondering about what comes next. In this event we saw Maeda (Kyotaro) come in and deliver a shocking upset vs Manhoef and Saki derail the Spong hypetrain. People weren't so psyched about the tournament on paper, but by the time the event rolled into the latter half people were wondering if Maeda actually had anything for the relatively proven Saki e. The finals is the obvious culmination of everything that has happened to date. Remy, the reigning champion, had to defend his honor vs Alistair, an upstart invader. Really I am rooting for Glory, because a lot of what they've done after the Spike deal termination is what I think are heading in the right direction. Just looking at this event, guys like Nabiyev, Glunder, Jaraya were the sort of guys we were anxious to get more of. They managed to create real buzz for events by scoring Badr. I suspect what K1power and I feel are more like frustration than hate. Its the same thing as cooking. Glory is getting top tier ingredients, but also spoiling the course meal by offering things out of order and mixing in a bit of lesser quality stuff here and there. |
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Post by JustBleedFan on Mar 5, 2018 3:27:41 GMT 1
This bout order stuff really seems like you guys are reaching for a triviality to get upset about from my point of view. I look at it like this, I'm a fan, so I'm going to watch every fight on the card anyway. Therefore, within reason, does it really matter what exact order the bouts occur in, other than the main event being last? Especially since we've been told and it's easy for all of us to understand that there's a good business reason that Glory splits their cards up into a SuperFight Series for Fight Pass and a Glory numbered main card that they can sell separately for tv distribution around the world in different territories.
By the way, you guys aren't unique with these complaints. Certain people on MMA forums that I frequent often complain about the same exact thing- bout order- on UFC cards questioning why certain fights are on the Fight Pass early online prelims vs the Fox Sport 1 tv prelims vs the televised or PPV main card. The UFC obviously has similar business reasons to split the cards into segments and put some of the featured fights or well known fighters to 'headline' the earlier parts of the cards. It just doesn't bother me with the UFC cards, nor does it with Glory cards, even though Glory takes it one step further than the UFC even by putting title fights on the SFS cards.
I just find it hard to fathom that this is the thing that's ruining your experience, because you can't get the bouts to be shown in the exact order that you think they should be shown in. Really?
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Post by K1power on Mar 5, 2018 20:24:19 GMT 1
Fight order is important, like really important. The right pacing builds up momentum, i.e. your excitement as an audience member for what's next.
The concept is really simple:
When I start watching an event and see a good fight, it gets me more excited for what's next. If the following fight is not good, I am less excited for what's next.
If I see multiple fights in a row that are good or great I am over the moon with excitement for what's next. If I see multiple fights in a row that are bad or downright suck, I start caring a lot less of what's about to happen next, regardless of who's fighting. Pacing completely determines the momentum and overall experience I have.
It's less of a deal breaker when the majority of the fights is good, because you're entertained throughout the whole event and one or two bad fights inbetween usually won't have that much of a bad effect on your overall experience.
Glory 51 though, that's a different story.
Karaevfan, you're 100% right. It's pure frustration. Heck, I knew the main card looked bad (aside from Badr/Hesdy) and even said it before the event. The SuperFight Series ended up being surprisingly enjoyable though and I got excited and started hoping for the main card to surpass my expectations as well. Didn't happen. In fact, it was worse than I expected. None of the fights were able to grab my attention and Mozny vs. Skvor was the icing on the crapcake I was being served.
I understand the whole 'viable business model constrains/tv deals/give the tournament fighters a break' deal. I fully understand the situation and that's why - to a degree - I cut them some slack. At the very least I want the fights I watch to be entertaining though.
Now I fully admit I tend to give Glory more shit than other orgs. This is because of their origins and some of the people still involved with them today. Also, more importantly: Glory is kickboxing's only promotion that is somewhat trying to cater to a global audience. Now, there are promotions that I think have a MUCH better product than Glory has, but they are more focused on local markets. That means, to a lot of people around the world kickboxing = Glory.
Glory is the global representation of kickboxing. That's why I want them to do the best they can, but they're not even close to doing that and it frustrates me to no end.
Even if the majority of the audience consists of casual viewers or moderate fans and may not even pick up on a lot of stuff, we as hardcore fans still care. Besides, even casual fans will pick a lot of stuff up on a more subconscious level, like attention to detail and overall product 'polish', making a higher quality experience stick a lot longer than simply a few minutes of instant gratification popcorn entertainment.
Again, JimGunn, if you like Glory fine just the way it is then that means they have a loyal fan in you and that's great. It's great that you defend what you like. It's just that there are things that you view as unimportant trivial details or simple technicalities and appear to have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that to other people the same things are actually essential. Having said that: in hindsight, I might have come off a bit aggressive and that wasn't my intention, even though I still 100% stand behind my opinion. Nobody here should feel like an outcast for having a different point of view (within reason) as this is a discussion forum after all.
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Post by JustBleedFan on Mar 5, 2018 22:54:15 GMT 1
Your long explanation helped solidify my thoughts on this matter, K1power. I can't help but think that your expectations are completely unrealistic and therefore you will always be impossible to please, no matter what Glory does. You're actually complaining about two different and only tangentially related things- the first one being the bout order not being set up exactly the way you personally would prefer, regardless of what anyone else thinks; and secondly, you're complaining about the actual execution of the fights as they play out in the ring. Even if Glory set the bout order of the card up exactly the way you personally would like by chance, there's no way anyone could accurately and consistently guarantee that each and every fight is going to be exciting in any promotion, whether it's Glory or otherwise, as that's down to the fighters' performances on the night and there's clearly a lot of chance involved in that anyway. Whatever happens is what happens, whether it's Glory, the UFC or a boxing match. How can you possibly blame the promotion for that except in maybe a very, very broad sense?
That's why it's difficult to take your complaints seriously, because you expect Glory to read your mind or consult with you on the bout order and then on top of that you would apparently need every single bout to be a FOTY candidate to begrudgingly say the card went okay. That's what I find so baffling about your expectations, because nothing in life works like this. For example: If you listen to a new music album by your favorite group or artist do you expect all ten songs to not only be in the order you prefer but also somehow be the best track ever written and somehow each one simultaneously better than the others? When you watch a season of your favorite tv drama do you expect all thirteen episodes to be the greatest episode ever broadcast with no slower or more thoughtful episodes in between the super engaging ones that move the story along?
What's especially maddening is that your complaints are so broad and inartfully drafted that there is nothing that Glory could do to act on them even if they wanted to. How could they possibly know what bout order you personally want? Even if you told them that for example, you wanted all the bigger fights on the main card rather than some on the SFS, you know that they won't listen because they split the card into two different products and I doubt that is changing any time soon. And how could they conceivably make sure that every fight is exciting and none of them end up being a little boring or some fighters having flat or mundane performances? Wag their finger at the fighters backstage and make them promise to leave it all in the ring? I mean, get real, we're living on Planet Earth, not Planet Utopia, and you've set your expectations up in a way that they are impossible to fulfill no matter what they do even if they hired you and made you CEO of Glory.
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Post by K1power on Mar 6, 2018 0:01:28 GMT 1
Wow, it's like you actually reacted to a completely different post. And that's because you did, because you didn't actually go into a single point I've raised. I don't even know where to begin here, or if I even want to given how you will probably respond with a lot of words without actually saying anything useful.
Oh well, I guess I'll 'try'..
How is it a completely unrealistic expectation to simply want good fights and a card with logical pacing? How is it a completely unrealistic expectation when lots of other promotions actually pass this criterium with flying colors, seemingly without even trying? Even Glory was on a really good streak after Glory 44; why do you choose to ignore my praise and focus only on the complaints as if critique is the only thing you're capable of registering?
Of course how things look on paper and how things actually play out are two completely different things. Sometimes fights that look great on paper end up not living up to expectations: the fight is boring, someone gets injured, the wrong fighter gets the decision, etc. It happens on a fairly regular basis; that's just life and when it does I'm disappointed, but I don't blame the matchmakers. After all, shit happens sometimes. Some things are beyond our control.
However, you can plan out a lot. Simply by looking at a fight card you can get a pretty accurate idea of what to expect and deduce when there's a gradual buildup in quality in terms of the matchups. when you have a solid card it's rare for none of the fights to deliver.
I never said nor implied I needed or want Glory to cater to my personal preferences and it blows my mind to what depths you chose to misinterpret pretty much everything I said. I have no idea what brought you to the conclusion that I need every fight to be a 10/10 or even a 7/10.
No, not every single fight needs to be twice as good as the last nor do they all have to be FOTY contenders. That indeed, is a completely unrealistic expectation to have from any event from any promotion. In the most simple of terms, put the weakest fights at the bottom of the card and the best at the top. That's not rocket science, it's basic logic. I'm completely fine with some stinkers being on the card, but 6 fights out of 10 is a disappointment.
I mentioned Glory actually got it right with the SFS portion. I just wish there wasn't such a tremendous disconnect between the two separate portions of the event: 4 out of 5 fights (80%!!) of the main card consisted of bad fights. On the Dutch broadcast, Remy Bonjasky and Jack van Gelder who were doing analysis in between fights mentioned how disappointed they were with the fights after each one had ended until Badr/Hesdy happened which they really liked.
I think fartsmeller said it best when he mentioned it would have been a great show if it was just SFS and Badr vs. Hesdy.
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Post by JustBleedFan on Mar 6, 2018 7:00:12 GMT 1
I appreciate you trying to clarify your position, but in essence, you're still complaining that the fights on Glory 51 weren't in the exact order that you would prefer despite also saying that you don't expect them to cater to you. You're still complaining that some of the fights didn't turn out to be as entertaining as you hoped they would be (gasp!) despite the fact that this is the case for every fight on every card for every combat sports promotion, kickboxing or otherwise. And you're still claiming that Glory management is not only to blame for these fundamental realities but that they are unique in this and that other promotions somehow get it right despite the fact that other promotions also have a bout order that may deviate from your personal preference and despite the fact that other promotions' cards may have some or even a few fights that happen to turn out to be boring for whatever reason. And yet you're still confused as to why I think that your comments are completely unreasonable?
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Post by K1power on Mar 6, 2018 18:28:18 GMT 1
It's a bit sad how accurate my prediction of your response was.
I have issues with the pacing of Glory cards, but no amount of shuffling would have hidden the fact that the majority of the fights was bad. That was my main gripe. I even said I was kind of okay with the pacing for this event.
You are so focused on the fact that I have issues with the pacing when it's not even my main problem with this card and I repeated this multiple times - very clearly.
The main problem with this card - the main card specifically - was with the matchmaking. The fights that were bad were bad matchups on paper. I said so weeks ago. It's not that I didn't want to like the matchups and had decided in my mind that the fights would suck. I was actually really rooting for the fights despite my low expectations of them, but they ended up sucking even more in reality than on paper. Complaining about the quality of most of the fights is not being unreasonable or unrealistic, especially not when it's so abundantly clear the matchmaking is to blame. Even within the restrictions that Glory operates in they could - and should - have given us much better matchups and ultimately we would have ended up with better fights. It really is that simple. It's not 'unrealistic' or 'unreasonable' to want fights that are enjoyable and it all begins with good matchmaking.
I do have hope though: our very own long-time member lordgaul aka the warman now has a position within Glory as a talent scout, but has mentioned in his latest podcast that he's also helping with things like matchmaking.
Now this is a man that understands card pacing, matchmaking and bringing up talents and I hope he'll be able to have enough influence within the organisation to leave a notable mark on events to come.
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Post by JustBleedFan on Mar 7, 2018 1:50:06 GMT 1
I won't keep arguing- after all I'm in favor of smart matchmaking and great fights too. I just think that you must set yourself up for repeated disappointment with the kind of near perfection you expect in the matchmaking and the actual results. I watch dozens of kickboxing cards every year, easily over a hundred MMA cards and a bunch of boxing cards too and I never go into any of them thinking that all dozen or so fights are going to be great or give me some kind of ecstasy. I just try to look at the matchups I like and the positives as I see them and understand that there is always going to be some filler on the card and some peaks & valleys in the live experience and that some fights will even turn out to be boring for whatever reason. I also go into watching these cards thinking that I'd be a fool to think that it could ever be otherwise for any promotion. I set my expectations at what I consider a realistic level and I'm rarely disappointed. Matter of fact, of all the many combat sports cards I watch, Glory are among the most enjoyable for me. Too bad that there is so much negative for you.
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Post by K1power on Mar 7, 2018 18:04:59 GMT 1
Fair enough, at this point it's best to just agree to disagree.
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